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dean bungle

i belive ted bundy was always struggling with homicidal tendencies from a very young age possibly they started with a uncontrolable sexual desires as a young boy and not knowing how to vent these desires turrned into subduing his early victims. i belive ted bundy probably raped somebody before he killed maybe the same person a few times or several young girls.

i feel that on his first murder ted bundy lost control of the situation maybe felt like he was going to be caught out or felt his victim had more power over the outcome of the situation so this resulted in his first homicide.

these are just my own thoery and have no evidence to back them up i have read alot about ted bundys case and several other mass murders and sex criminals.
i only pose these veiws as to get the conversation ball rolling. i dont belive what so ever that ted bundy killed during his first rape or kidnap. i belive he talked his way out of the situation and when this approach failed in a subsequent crime he resorted to murder. i dont belive he intended to become a mass murderer he just learnt it was an easy way to eradicate the problem from a young age and since he kept getting away with it it became embeded in his normal way of doing things.

Erin Aboudara

It is interesting that the previous posting on this web blog is from just yesterday morning as I write this. I had a dream about Ted Bundy just this morning--in it, he was still alive, facing his execution and was being interviewed by Bob Keppel. I knew Bob Keppel and his wife Sandy and their 2 children back in the '70's, when I was a little girl. I played sometimes with Keppel's son back in those days. Our dad's were fellow detectives woking on the Bundy case.

My dad was the now deceased King County detective whose handcuffs were used to arrest Green River Killer, Gary Ridgway. The arresting detective had kept the handcuffs since right after my father's death from leukemia in 1985. My dad was Detective Paul Smith, a longtime veteran officer who also had connections with the early Ted Bundy investigation in Seattle when he had killed college students from UW and Denise Naslund and Janice Ott. He was on the Green River Task Force in the 1980's immediately prior to his death. My sister is a Tacoma Police officer today. I should ask her what she thinks of this still unsolved case.

I have long thought that it is very unlikely that Ann Marie Burr was murdered by Ted Bundy. How could he have gotten an eight year old to go away with him in the middle of the night? What would he have done, put her on the back of his bicycle? Anyone could have broken into her home or she could have wandered off on her own in the middle of the night. There is nothing but weak circumstantial evidence. It is like the JonBenet Ramsey case--it is most likely that she was murdered by someone that the family was close to--someone that was known to her already. Like the little girl in California who was murdered by a neighbor man who entered the house through the garage door that had been left open by the stoned and drunk swinger parents several years back...

Bundy always maintained that he did not begin killing until he was an adult. It is unlikely that if he had already killed, already tasted death as a 14 or 15 year old boy, that he would not have killed again, throughout those intervening years of his teens and college years.

He had little difficulty killing other children later when he was an adult, so why when he was about to die, would he continue to deny it? It seems more likely that he did not do it. He delivered papers in another neighborhood. He did not live on the same street as the Burr's did--but 3 miles away. His mother stated that he was too small as a 14 year old boy to have carried off an eight year old girl. That is what always bothered me about this case--how would he take her off to who knows where? And no one--no neighbors, with windows open during the summer night, would have heard or seen anything? Her parents didn't hear her get up again during the night when the little sister had already been up during the night crying? That just doesn't hold water to me.

Just my thoughts!

John_A

I lived 2 blocks from the Burr house when the kidnapping occurred. I believe that Ted Bundy was not only capable of this murder, but most probably did it as well. First, the paper route that he had was with the Seattle Post-Intellegencer, a morning paper. It was not the paper of choice in Tacoma at that time, but my mom was involved in politics, and subscribed to both morning and evening papers. Ted was our paper boy. The paper route was only about 40 customers, and was spread out over several miles. I know this because in later years, one of my friends held the same route, and I would sometimes deliver for him when he was on vacation. It required having a bike, and often there was several blocks between subscribers. At that time, Tacoma was a much more innocent city, and it was not unusual for all of us kids to be riding our bikes all summer, particularly to the University of Puget Sound with its summer swimming program open till 9 pm and athletic fields where we had pick-up games of flag football and fly-up. This was about 4 blocks from tha Burr house, and the campus bisected the route. To apply for the route that Ted held, he would have had to travel to N. 6th Avenue and Fife Streets, where the office manager was. In August, the sun usually rises at about 5 a.m., and this was the time when the kidnapping occurred. Not night as in total darkness, but at a time before people rose. A ladder was found leaning against the second floor window, and there were small tennis shoe footprints in the wet ground. Police theorized that perhaps the kidnapper was oriental since ships of Asian registry docked with regularity in the Port of Tacoma. A gulch extends from near the Burr house to the waterfront, and it would not be far-fetched to presume someone could have come up from there as this is how the Matson and the Weyerhaeuser kidnappings of the 1930's occurred.
After discovering Anne was missing from the house, her father frantically searched the neighborhood for her. When he got to the UPS campus, he found a boy staring into the excavation of a new building whose foundation was going to be poured that day. The father later identified the boy from a photo: Ted Bundy. Some reports say that the body may be in the foundation of the fountain or a dormitory, but it was McIntyre Hall, a lecture hall, whose foundation was lain. Today, they would have jackhammered it down immediately, but back then, it was considered too expensive, and investigators simply weren't sure. A friend of the family, Jack Pyle, the political columnist for the Tacoma News Tribune told me in the mid 1970's, that he had once asked some police detectives during a late night poker game if he could see the file on the kidnapping. They showed it to him, and he recounted much of what is here, and further that Ted was taken in for questioning and managed to evade questions and play games with them during the interrogation. There was no probable cause to keep him, and he was cool as a cucumber. Remember: this was before he had gone on his cross country killing spree. As for him being only a weak boy, not capable of carrying Anne Marie, there is a photograph of Ted in one of the biographies of him taken that summer while rowing on Spanaway Lake. Take a look at his shoulder muscles. And his school, Hunt Junior High was in a neighborhood that had about a 50/50 proportion of kids who went to Mason Jr. High, not that far off the beaten path of the Burr house so having mutual friends would not be out of the question. A woman who subs at the school where I teach remembers him as living that summer with either a relative, or with his mom, near N. 12th and Fife, but I can't confirm if this is true. She is part Athabascan native American, and said that she always had shivers and a queer feeling near the entrance of McIntyre Hall when she was a student there at that time. She did not know that that is where Ted supposedly hid the body in the foundation, but she said she always felt as if a little girl was crying. A large California Redwood has grown up over that last 40+ years in that spot between McIntyre and where it abuts almost perpendicularly with Thompson Hall, the original building of UPS from the 1890's.

Katie

I am always sincerely fascinated by any sort of true crime story, being that it reveals and says something about our abilities as human beings. However frightening and revolting the actions taken by individuals may be at times, they raise important questions about what humans are capable of and why they become capable of it. I mean there's been several stories of murderers that "nobody saw coming" until they recount evidence and realize that they should've seen it. The recent Virginia Tech murderer Cho Seung-Hui, Jeffrey Dahmer, Kip Kinkel, the Green River Killer, or even as early as the Hungarian serial killer Bela Kiss, who has eluded police to this day and has to be dead himself by now, the girl Sarah something who killed her parents in Idaho, are all prime examples. In all those cases there was early evidence of a killer in the making that was either not noticed or not taken seriously because nobody wants to believe that people can end up doing things like that. So do I think that a fifteen year old Ted Bundy could've abducted and killed a little girl, even though he was only fifteen at the time? YES. Children can do things to other children. Young adults can find a way to kill someone if they want to, it is not now or has it ever been out of the realm of possibility. We don't want to believe that, but it's true. I myself am from the Northwest as well, and have had immense interest in Ted Bundy for a long time, simply because his case is so haunting and it happened near my hometown. The thing that really gets me is that people are making a big deal that he couldn't have done it and not been detected. Yet later on in life he managed to escape from a prison without being detected. So are people saying it wasn't possible because he was fifteen at the time or because there was a family in the house when he supposedly did it? What was the difference in the prison? Was it that he was older and therefore more capable in his age or the fact that instead of a family there were prison guards and inmates? He was an extremely intelligent and disturbed person, and those two attributes combined can be lethal. I mean there have been other cases of abductions by way of windows where the kidnapper escaped undetected by the family or those around the home. And the first posting on this page about the area and his paper route really make a strong case for his involvement. There are a lot of things in that posting that, if those facts are for real, than they help. We're talking about a 3 mile radius here, not a 30 mile radius. Bike riding and anything outdoors is huge in the Northwest, and as a child in the summer I remember riding my own bike all the way across town at times. That was in 1991. Not 1961, and the Puget Sound/Tacoma area was a lot slower and a lot more quiet than it is now. Also, the little girl was apparently not unfamiliar with Ted. Although 15 year olds can seem a lot older to a little girl, he was also not a parental figure to her, and therefore not as intimidating. She may have looked up to him. He may have coaxed her away. Who knows? He could've threatened her also. Maybe she had wandered away herself and upon returning he followed her. There had been other kidnappings in that exact area within the past 30 years at the time, so I don't see how this is so unbelievable. Implausible, maybe, but at least possible. Also his Aunt saying that when he was little he placed butcher knives beside her is one example of incidences forgotten that should have been a huge red flag. It is another case of many where a serial killer will start identifying themselves at an early age. I could say a lot more, because I have a lot more thoughts on the issue, my posting is already getting too long. I am just asking questions and making speculations. I will end with the fact that I truly don't know why he would take the murder of Anne Marie to his grave after confessing to the others, which, I suppose, is one of the major roadblocks to fully believing he really did this. I will say that after watching the tapes of his interviews as well as his replies in the courtroom during his trial, he is a very charismatic performer who liked to keep people wondering. Maybe he wanted to keep a little piece of that mystique floating above our heads....to feel like he could take one last secret with him to the grave. Or to feel like he played a joke on us. We're still mystified and intrigued, aren't we?

Jeffrey K. Tesch

As a follow up to my Bundy piece, here's some updated information I've gleaned from conversations with Beverly Burr (Ann Marie's mother).

1. She does not believe Ted Bundy kidnapped and murdered her daughter.
2. Anne Marie did not take piano lessons next store to Ted's Uncle.
3. She does not recall seeing Ted Bundy delivering their paper.
4. She likes the same suspect that investingating officer Tony Zatkovich liked in 1961: a 17 year old neighbor boy who lived three doors away.
5. She described the family as "very religious" and their teenage son as "strange" but with an "unusual interest" in Anne Marie.
6. She admitted to me (with embarrassment) that 3 days after Ann went missing, she went to their house on some pretext. Finding them not home and the door open, she went through their first floor looking for any sign of Ann Marie, specifically her cross pendant received a month earlier at her first communion. She became frightened and left without searching the 2nd floor or finding any trace of her daughter.
7. This suspect was eventually questioned and given a polygraph (results inconclusive) before the family's lawyer pressured the cops to charge him or release him.
8. She says the suspect is still alive (age 63) and still living in Tacoma.
9. She keeps tabs on him - says he has been completely estranged from his family for more than 40 years.
10. She told me she sees Louise Bundy in the grocery store from time to time. Ted's mother knows who Beverly is but avoids her and does not speak.

Beverly Burr is an amazingly courageous woman who has never gotten the closure she deserves - I wish I could give it to her. I know if my child had disapeared I would never stop looking...

Ted Bundy is a suspect in the Burr case - nothing more. Like may Bundy mavens, I wanted to link him to Anne Marie when I first read about it. My heart had him guilty, but my head isn't buying it. Like Beverly Burr, I believe it's just a macabre coincidence.

I'm much more willing to accept Ted's involvement in the murder/assault of the two stewardesses in 1966 Seattle - but even that case had a better suspect (landlord's son).

I'd like to keep this thread going and would welcome response to this information.

Jeffrey K. Tesch
jtesch@cinci.rr.com

Kent

You say this person is still alive. Was this person ever married and what type of job did he do? It seems to me that the police should give him another lie detector test.

Kevin M. Sullivan

I spoke with Mrs. Burr about a year ago. At that time she said she didn't know, (how could she?) if Bundy was involved. She said her husband, who is now deceased, believed he could be responsible, but again, no one knows for sure. I will tell you this: On at least two occasions, Bundy pointed the finger at himself; and in one particular conversation he had back in the 80's, he mentioned one particular aspect of her abduction that left me believing he probably is guilty. In the end, however, only God, Ted, and Ann Marie know what happened on that terrible night in 1961.

Kent

If there is some possiblility she is buried in the foundation of UPS, then I believe there are some X-Ray imaging techniques that may discover her. In all fairness, this should be attempted.

Kent

One thing I find interesting is some website indicate Bundy lived only blocks from the Burr's residence while this Website says it "Confirms" he lived 3 miles. I think King5's (Seattle TV Show), Evening Magazine had mentioned that Mrs.Burr had thought Ted was probably guilty. I never heard on the TV program she mentioned a neighbor boy. But anyway, it would be nice if Evening Magazine would do an updated story.

Justin

Desensitization 15/2/08


In order to understand these ‘‘deranged’’, sadistic psychopathic serial killers, we must first understand and accept that it is perhaps impossible to define and examine them without them having committed a homicide, because shouldn’t it be obvious that their true personality hides behind several layers of ‘‘carefully crafted’’ veneer? Isn’t it obvious that at some stage, this carefully crafted veneer will run out of it’s patience and once it has, can we see the ‘‘real’’ them. So what I am trying to say here is that these so called psychopaths, despite their talent at acting and exercising deception which we automatically assume, is really just trying to fit in with the norms and values held by ‘‘normal people’’ and behaviour that is perhaps more socially acceptable. But after their grisly homicidal crusade, they get accused of ‘‘game playing’’ from an early age and then we begin to pester into their childhood and conclude what might have triggered their behaviour and blah blah blah. The point here is definite. After having tried for so many years to ‘‘fit in’’ with these norms and values and failing to do so, they do what they do, thus being honest. Thus, revealing their true colours. And if that honesty brings about so much controversy and unpleasantness, then that’s very degrading. It must be mentally exhausting to tailor your personality to meet the needs of others day in and day out and not get much in return. And I am talking from ‘‘hard core’’, first hand experience. It must be mentally exhausting. What are we to do with life if we can’t do what we really want to do? Then, that will be a life wasted.

And I think, it is time, instead of being so quick to jump in on conclusions and making them an object of unjustly study, that we began to praise them for their effort into understanding and accepting them for who they really are because it can’t be helped. Just as much as people think the ‘‘victim’’ has suffered the most, it is these people that will forever be haunted by those dark and demeaning visions of their murders and they will carry that for the rest of their life and perhaps even after that, especially if they are on the road to redemption. And just as much as ‘‘normal people’’ being able to freely do what they like in life, these so called ‘‘psychopaths’’ can too, if the world is for everybody. And it is.

Just as much as these normal people being able to pursue with their addiction, such as smoking or drinking, then these psychopaths can too- to kill. It becomes their ‘‘fatal addiction’’, as what Ted Bundy had said fifteen hours prior to his execution. To perform and keep performing homicide and although that (at first) might not be premeditated to kill and repeat, it then becomes quite an addiction once you have totally ripped that innocence and any sense of morality when they go about performing their second homicide and once they have established that need to keep doing it, that’s what they do. The term to describe this is desensitization. Desensitization encourages this despondent behaviour, thus blocking any moral obligation and psychopath or not, anyone can achieve this. If smokers are having trouble quitting smoking, imagine what it must be like for these psychopaths to quit murdering people. Just imagine.

So it must be to some degree, rather uncomforting for them, when they are locked up and deprived of their liberty to pursue their addiction and for that, we should sympathize with them instead of being too quick to ‘‘lock them up’’. Locking up that one person, as much as it might relieve the public, won’t do much for that certain someone that will come ten years down the line to do exactly what their masters had done and the chain continues. As it will continue to. We can really begin to understand them once and after they have done what they could always do and no amount of moral obligation, upbringing or social conditioning can or will stop their homicidal urges and later, their addiction. There will always be unsettling events that will captivate and hypnotize the world and so it will continue. Time and time again....

They are virtual slaves to their beastly appetite and it can’t be helped.


What was meant to happen, shall happen and we will have to meet it when it does.


From my perspective, the name Ted Bundy suits more with that of a killer than a decent Law student.

I think that’s saying something.


Justin

Psychopaths 22/2/08

-Superficial charm and average intelligence.
-Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
-Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations.
-Unreliability.
-Untruthfulness and insincerity.
-Lack of remorse or shame.
-Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction.
-Poor judgement and failure to learn from experience.
-Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love.
-General poverty in major affective reactions.
-Specific loss of insight.
-Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations.
-Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without.
-Suicide threats rarely carried out.
-Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated.
-Failure to follow any life plan.


These bold and highlighted ones, I am afraid to say, very acutely represents me and I am slightly unnerved to share the same characteristics as psychopaths and it’s disturbing, especially the last one- failure to follow any life plan.

For me, and especially for me, given my bizarre circumstances, I find it tremendously difficult and grueling to stick with an objective, goal-oriented plan of which I start of with increasing hopes of success at the beginning, but find it increasingly hard to maintain so because I get bored easily and that interferes greatly as to the saddening outcome of that goal-oriented plan and I then, feel like a failure and a sad fuck. These feelings of little self-worth isn’t the nicest of feeling regarding oneself and it infuriates anger and self-hatred more due to that failure but people often mistake that for the failure itself and I have to stress, that, that is not the case and that there is something deeper about my failure to follow any life plan and that something is abnormal. I wish people could understand this. I wish people had the time of the day to understand this but sadly they don’t and I hope you don’t perceive in relation to grandiosity to ask so from others.

It also infuriates that anger and self hatred further because deep down, I know, that the entire world of homicide is where I really belong- where I have always belonged. So in terms of following a certain, pre-planned career path such as with Graphics, is really just a disguise from the things that I really want to learn about, such as what the world of homicide would rightly provide for me but what also what infuriates the situation further is the fact that now is probably a little too late to turn back and choose to study subjects in relation to the world of homicide and that’s a shame. It’s saddening and I am saddened.
So in terms of all that, studying Graphics is really, from my perspective, a cover up, an illusion that can’t ever be fruitful in anyway- not now and definitely not in the near future- not when the world of homicide continues to captivate my thoughts. That would perhaps make it that much more impossible because to be deeply engrossed with one world, that is so bizarrely different from the other, and still expect to excel at your ‘‘pretentious’’ world full of illusions, is pretty absurd. It is very unnerving and to the highest level, saddening, as previously said.

It’s actually a sacrifice. A shameful sacrifice. A regrettable sacrifice.

And I deeply regret it. However, moving on, with Psychopaths and those shared similarities I have with them, is just as much unnerving as studying a subject with this level of pretence to be genuinely interested, likewise with Graphics. Like I said before- it’s pretty absurd. And I hope, somewhere down the line, all this comes to be of fruitful use. I hope.

But moving on to the main focus of this letter, I have to state now, that I am mesmerized at the level of deception practiced by these psychopaths (which I always believed to have done though not for the same reason/s as these psychopaths), that when it was mentioned I felt to some extent, exposed and ashamed and maybe even guilty. Though, I have to add that I was always been made to feel guilty about one thing or another since birth, so that wasn’t too much of a surprise. And those feelings of guilt are unlike psychopaths, which perhaps goes to show that I too, lack in similarities all the same. I am amazed and highly ashamed all the same too, to share some of the same characteristics as these psychopaths, because I have come to realise now, that the deception practiced by me are for the reasons highly different to those seeking a more murderous revenge behind their ‘‘carefully crafted veneer’’ (so to not get caught), and those reasons for me, are that I fear not being understood by others, and so I try with desperation to forge into a character liked and appreciated by others. Although I won’t kid you and have you believe, that I have never felt those homicidal urges before- because I have. And I continue to. It’s actually intensifying now as I am getting older. And this goes on to reinforce what I have always said- that to conquer feeling and intense emotions such as mine gives you a better position to judge.

A better perspective to judge.

And from my perspective and although I have no such degree into the psychology to ‘‘justify’’ officially the triggers behind the murderous acts of serial, psychopathic killers and I won’t pretend to either, but surely it doesn’t require you to have a degree to formulate the opinion or rather the conclusion that Ted Bundy is by far, the best representation of a psychopathic person? Surely, that isn’t too hard to see? Surely it doesn’t take someone with or without a degree to see that? So from that view and also from the view that all psychopathic people are that way due to genetic cause, that surely what was meant to happen will happen and that it can’t be helped and due to that, justifying your actions and baring your soul to the world of ‘‘normality’’ would be totally unfair? Imagine yourself continuing with such level of despair and desperation to be understood by the world, to continue justifying your actions and trying your level best to have the world too, understand your side of the story and still receive a death penalty at the end of your road to honesty, is nothing but absurd and illogical? Can you envision what that’s like? You against this brutal, sadistic, viscous and unforgiving world? Just you by yourself? Can you imagine the amount of courage needed to achieve that? Can you envision the insanity of that and still get called ‘‘insane’’? Can you imagine pleading for forgiveness from The Almighty when you haven’t been shown any since birth? Can you imagine what that’s like? That’s right- you can’t. Don’t pretend to either. And definitely don’t judge these so called ‘‘psychopaths’’ and view them to be all insane because the fact of the matter is that, you can only realise they are psychopaths after their grisly homicidal crusade and that you too, despite your inconsiderate judgments, have fallen prey to their deceit and lies?

I am not saying I don’t have enough sympathy for how brutally Ted had murdered those girls, nor am I not saying I lack empathy for what they went through (the sheer pain of what they endured should not be justifiable in anyway) because I don’t. I don’t lack either sympathy or empathy. I don’t pretend to be all smug and confident viewing images so brutal and beyond anything we are ever accustomed to with that ‘security blanket’ around us, because that would be unfair and unjust and since I see many of that being practiced so regularly in today’s society (being hypocritical), it is not something I am keen on displaying. I dislike being a hypocrite with views like these.

It is said in the following website http://crime.about.com/od/serial/a/psychopaths.htm that these psychopaths, when they feel empowered, examined and finally understood by the world, they tends to shift away all that unpleasant focus from them and thus becomes twice as more aggressive in their murderous acts than they had previously and that empowers their murderous acts to a new and more dangerous level than previously and a shining example of that happening, is the case with Ted Bundy- his Chi Omega murders, preferably. After the world’s media and hostility on him, he must have felt compelled to ‘‘teach the world’’ a lesson and thus, planning his great escape from Florida State Prison, and fueling his needs further to commit five murders in one given night (which is not a common characteristic with him) and that perhaps goes to reinforce my previous belief that just as much as these psychopaths are that way due to genetic causes, the world (the society) provides that final trigger to really go about this road to this level of sheer and unpleasant insanity, thus, nobody is ever too guilty of anything. Nobody.

The society, our society, plays an equally important factor, perhaps a trigger, to these strong and overpowering homicidal urges felt by these psychopathic people and the society is just as much to blame for the unpleasant outcome, as these psychopathic people. This is my conclusion. This is my argument.

‘‘Whose dangerous impulses are being fueled day in and day out by the society...’’- Ted Bundy

Justin

Feed Back 18/1/08

Hi, it’s me. Hey, I’m sorry about my behaviour that you had to witness and it clearly wasn’t planned and I’m sorry you had to witness what you did! I normally don’t ‘‘lose it’’ but Karl’s persistency aggravated me to some unpleasant extent and I said a few harsh words here and there, but what more could I have done? I kept telling him to stop being persistent and then he wonders why I was getting so angry. It’s people like him that reinforces my not wanting to be normal. If I achieved all that I have being so ‘‘abnormal’’, what would being normal give me? Would it make me more wise? Would it be beneficial to me in anyway? Would it extend my knowledge and curiosity when being so abnormal stretched that curiosity that got the best of me? What would being ‘‘too normal’’ do for me and millions of others with bizarre backgrounds, like Eminem, for instance?

I have come to believe that these boundaries in which we are since birth are forced to conform to gets the worst out of us, especially the more rebellious ones and not just because they might have ADD or ADHD or any other disorders you can find but it is through your restlessness and maddened curiosity that shapes your life, your thoughts, your knowledge. It is in these moments of insanity that you really understand life. It is in these moments of bizarre experiences beyond your control, that tests your patience and educates you about yourself. This ‘security blanket’ that most of us want to have around us, shields us from the realities of life, thus, masking problems. Reality is about problems. The rest are illusions, delusions and also hallucinations. The rest should be unaccounted for.

If Kay Redfield Jamison can understand this, why can’t you? Have you ever experienced insanity before? Who are you to judge?

If normalcy was all that surrounded us, then how would we possibly react in a normal ‘‘manner’’ when realities hit hard? How would we cope? Would we cope? Experiences so bizarre like mine and millions of other people, tests the boundaries of all our knowledge, thus making us a little wiser. A little thicker skin. A little more intelligent. But my assumptions given on Karl’s highly inappropriate behaviour and your reluctance (just as I imagined it to be) to share your views is that you could never come to accept let alone understand. How could you call yourself psychiatrists? I pray, as time will pass, that you can too learn and perhaps, even better yourself. I mean, there’s always room for improvement, right Katie? I am reluctant and hesitant to believe that your path and my path have crossed for reasons so minor. I refuse to believe that. There has to be a greater, more fulfilling reasons for both our paths to have crossed, don’t you think? You too, can better yourself and actually learn something, Katie. Just set your mind to it!
Loosen your ego. Loosen your pride. Strip yourself of all of that.

However, referring back to my ‘‘feedback’’ of our sessions that I was told to write, I have to say that it was hundred times better than the one with Karl and for reasons I assume you already suspect, right? But let’s not get into that. That’s a different issue. In time, people like Karl will be forced to change their views. This I promise you.

I found your sessions, especially with the room being so dark and cozy, relaxing. I found that your approach, although when I first met Karl, I preferred his ‘‘in-your-face’’, upbeat and lively attitude more appealing and I liked that we got into arguments in our very first session, which is something, again being a Scorpio, I like, and since Karl and my first meeting, my views on how your sessions were run changed and I no longer appreciated that but in order not to be rude, I kept it to myself. Which, like most things in my life, backfired. Looking back, your sessions gave me more freedom to talk and express myself, than the constant aggressive, impolite, judgmental, illogical interruptions from Karl, which I found rather displeasing. How old is he again? I guess, we have a major personality clash!

And how do I know my ‘‘book’’ will be a number one bestseller? If it isn’t hun, I don’t know what should be. But from another perspective, I can see how that remark would fit into Karl’s and supposedly yours, self fulfilling prophecy that I am still going through a hypor manic state, because they tend to exaggerate their abilities and qualities, don’t they? How the FUCK can anyone possibly ‘‘open up’’ when constantly every action of mine is being judged and for once, this is not my paranoia because it is fitting into some form of ‘symptoms’ of disorders. I can see how one would think that psychiatry kills, and isn’t it funny how more people have died in these ‘‘psychiatric’’ wards since 1776, then in any US wars in history? And nothing’s been done about it...? I thought that was your job. Guess I was wrong. But I have never been the one to sit down and conform to rules and guidelines without challenging it first and believe me, in time, I will exploit all these issues in a highly explicit manner because that is what’s necessary. I will do something about it. I will make a difference. And then my aunt goes on about me being self centered. Wow.

Guess if my thoughts were that deranged, then I guess Mr. Bush’s actions and decisions, have to be too? But given what you two have shown me, I guess you would never take a stance and stand up to him. Would diagnosing Mr. Bush with several disorders clash too much with your professional agenda, image and security? Here is me thinking about raping one human being and here is Mr. Bush raping an entire nation day in and day out. I mean, it doesn’t take a psychiatrist to see that he suffers from more than just being ‘‘too illiterate’’, right? So I ask again, would you diagnose Mr. Bush with some disorder?

...I didn’t think so, either.


Please return those pictures back I sent you. And remember the following quote:

‘‘You hear and you forget; you see and you remember; you do and you understand.’’

...I would very much like you to send this to Karl- again. Thanks!   


If we meet again, or even if we don’t, I wish you the very best in life. Take Care.
You think you know who you are, you have no idea.

Alexandra

If Sam Cowell was Ted's father, then his mother was also his half-sister. So she might not have been lying to him.

I think there's a LOT more to this whole Ted Bundy thing.

carole gill

I think a few things should be considered regarding Bundy's possible guilt:
--he was a paperboy with a bicycle.
--he could easily have pedaled over to the Burr house.
--he never admitted the murder because it was the only one he was ashamed of.
And perhaps, most importantly of all: In 1961 were there a few child abduction cases like this one in Tacoma? Or does this one stand out? If it stands out glaringly, well: you know the saying, "if it walks like a duck...."
I would think Ted Bundy got started really early.
What three-year old child puts butcher knives in their Aunt's bed? Hmmm? I'll vote for Bundy as the child's murderer, definitely.

Kevin M. Sullivan

Hi Carol--

Actually, Ted did admit to the murder, at least in the third-person, to a fellow that I know here in Louisville by the name of Dr. Ronald Holmes. This is not a secret, as Holmes' findings were published in a Tacoma newspaper back in the 80's. I interviewed Dr. Holmes last year for a book that I'm writing about Theodore, and he told me the same thing. Could Ted have been Lying? Sure. But there is that proverbial ring of truth in what he said, and I think there is a very good chance he in fact did commit the murder. But of course, as I mentioned above, only God, Ted, and Anne Marie know the answer to this question.

carole gill

Wow cool Kevin! I'm fine btw.
Keep us posted about the book!
I write too, but fiction.
So interested in your comments about Bundy. Although as you say, he did admit the killing in the third person (which I forgot) he was never forthright about confessing to Burr's killing. Basically taking the truth with him to the grave. His ultimate outrage really. Wouldn't it be lovely if all of his victims were lined up waiting for him--along with their parents who might now be dead as well?! Each and every one of them lined up ready to receive him into the afterlife? Ready to mete out their own brand of justice, too! How lovely that would be!

Kevin M. Sullivan

Hi again Carol--

While it might be true that Ted had nothing to do with the Burr case, I give a couple of pages to his possible involvement, and of course his statements to Dr. Holmes which appear to incriminate him. That he never fully admitted it (and in fact later denied it) may have to do with her age. I have heard others say, (and I agree with this) that the killing of women his own age was an acceptable confession, if you will. But to admit that you murdered a mere child is something else altogether. You can see a little of this reaction during his last interview where the minister asks him about 12 year old kimberly Leach, and immediately Bundy gets away from answering his question. So did he kill Anne Marie Burr? I don't know. But he did kill Leach, and he admitted in the third-person to killing Burr. So in the end we can't know for sure, at least we've not come across anything solid which absolutely links him to the crime. But I wouldn't be surprised if he did kill Anne Marie, either.

And thank God that I'm almost finished with the book. I've lived with Theodore Robert Bundy for close to three years now, and I'm looking forward to sending him on his way. All jokes aside, it's been a great experience, as I have had a chance to work with a lot of really good people who were close to the case, and I appreaciate all their help.

And glad to hear that you're a writer, Carol!

Kevin M. Sullivan

Carol

I forgot to say, (which links with your joke above) that several weeks ago I was talking with Mike Fisher, the former Chief Investigator for Colorado, and he was telling me about the time when he had to transport Theodore, (Fisher always called him that) from Utah to Colorado to stand trial for the murder of Caryn Campbell,and how fearful Ted seemed during the ride. I then told Mike he should have told Ted that he and the other officers were planning to drop him off at a large hall filled with the families of his victims, and that he would pick him up later!

carole gill

Thanks for that Kevin--He certainly was not everybody's idea of what a serial killer should look like. But that's just as well not to have preconceived opinions that a serial killer or any killer should be creepy or scary looking! So right, btw about the Leach killing. Wonder why he did it then. He was compulsive, right? I read Ann Rule's book years ago--Will sure read yours!
I mainly read true crime actually--although I try to read crime fiction because it help me to focus on writing. focus, focus focus!

Kevin M. Sullivan

Carol--

That's right! Bundy was articulate and well-educated,and certainly not your average serial killer, to be sure. Add handsome to this, and you have a person, (at least the outside of a person) which everyone likes.

As far as his killing of the Leach girl, well, I'm just now getting into the Florida section of the book, which of course, happily means I'm nearing the end. But I do have an opinion as to why he targeted her, and possible reasons why the age of his victims sometimes differed, but I'm saving that for the book. It's something I've given thought to as well.

Say, if you click over to the serial killer section on this site, you'll see why I ended up writing a book about Bundy. It was a surreal occurrence, and one which took hold of me, (at least in a literary sense) and propelled me forward with the project.

You know, I have heard that folks who write nonfiction won't be very good at fiction, and that you can say the same about about fiction writers switching over to nonfiction, and I think there is some truth to that. It is far easier for me to conduct interviews, seek out hard-to-find information and people, and to digest properly the material with an eye to bringing out the "gold" so to speak, than to write a work of fiction. I tried fiction once, and I found it quite a struggle. This is not to say that perhaps I couldn't "bang" out a story, but it's not where I'm at my best.

Keep up the writing, Carol, I'll bet it's very good.

carole gill

Kevin,
Just read all about the bag! Talk about an inspiring moment. You had to write the book. No doubt about it. What an experience that was for you.
Truthfully, I think non-fiction, particularly true crime is far more fascinating than crime fiction! At least it is to me.
And Kevin, there are authors that do both.
Burl Barer is one!
Go to the crimespace website. You might find it very interesting--even though it's mainly crime fiction related. Burl's on there btw.
Take a gander.
I do look forward to reading your book.
As for me--I plug away, 24/7 without let up. But I'm nearly finished with my second draft, which will be follwed by a third (the final draft).
And thanks for your encouragement. Here's a suggestion: try a short story based on a man who finds something that he discovers is the only link to a famous unsolved murder--maybe like that of the Black Dahlia! What do you say?

Kevin M. Sullivan

Carol, that does sound like a good idea. I may have to put that off a bit, as I have my eye on another case that may turn into a book. If I go that direction at that time, my world will be a nonfiction world again for the foreseeable future. I can't talk about the case now, it's all rather "hush,hush" as they say.

carole gill

Another case! Okay, just let us know when you can.
Go for it, Kevin and the best of luck!

Kent

I think Bundy killed the little Ann Marie. To me there is the possibility he drove a car (even though he was well underage) That would make it easier for him to transport the girl. That late at night, police are not going to be on the lookout for underage drivers. Apparently there was some construction going on at SPU.
could he have put her in an area where she would eventually have concrete poured on top of her. In fairness to everyone, that foundation should be investigated even if it costs money. It's not right to speculate by authorities if she could be there and not do anything. Two wrongs don't make a right. What are they doing with all of our taxpayers money anyway? Let's put our tax dollars to work and not in bureaucrat's pockets in
a socialist economy.

M & M

Bundy's whole life was a tragedy.

No one ever knew him. I have empathy not only for the victims and their families...I have empathy for him, too. People often react to this statement with shock and anger but they fail to realize that human behavior/psychology plays a role in everyone's life...including murderers. Ted Bundy might have been a sociopath but he was also a person. A deeply disturbed person with a penchant for cruelty but still a person.


What I would like to know is: what happened to him? Where did he go wrong? He had so much promise despite the difficulty of his childhood. His childhood photos show a little boy who was cute as a button. He grew into a handsome, seemingly confident man but that was all a front. Bundy's good looks didn't compensate for his deeply rooted issues and failed relationships with women. Outwardly he looked "normal" and acted "normal". He was anything but. We all project different images of ourselves at different times. It is possible that Burr was his first victim.


I too believe that he is the product of rape/incest within his family structure. Back then, it was shameful enough to have children out of wedlock...and to be raped. So it really isn't difficult for me to believe that his grandfather was indeed his father. Bundy never knew that his "sister" was actually his mother until he was significantly older. I cannot imagine what that would be like. Physically, he was fine. The defect that occurred from the supposed incest surrounding his birth was not physical...it was psychological and emotional. Bundy's grandfather was abusive, violent, alcoholic, and racist. His wife and children feared him. I absolutely believe that Ted might have inherited some type of faulty wiring as a result of being basically his half-sister's child.


Unfortunately, Bundy was one of those people with arrested emotional development. He'd probably never learned to express empathy. If he did indeed kill Ann Marie, it was probably unintentional. He might have intended to sexually abuse her but then murdered her out of fear that she would tell. As a young boy he might have established a pattern of being dishonest and hiding things to avoid punishment. It is my understanding that beatings were common in the Cowell home. I believe that some very sick stuff happened behind closed doors and this resulted in Ted being screwed up. His actions have NO justification, but it helps to have some insight into him despite the senseless acts of brutality.


I agree with Alexandra.


Kevin M. Sullivan

M&M--
You make a good point: Bundy was a victim too. Now, it's not popular to say so; when a monster is running around killing people, all society does is try to destroy said monster, and I have no problem with that. But what people must realize is this: No one growing up says to themselves, "Gee, I would like to grow up and entice women to take a seat in my car so that I can bash them in the head with my crowbar. Then, I will take them to a secluded location where I will have intercourse with them as I strangle them from behind. Once they're dead, I will have sex with them again, as I observe the beautiful changes their bodies take in the minutes and hours after death; and what the hell, I may even take my hacksaw and remove the head for pleasure at my apartment later!"

Now, no one in their right mind does such a thing. Are they legally insane? Perhaps not. But normal people simply don't think this way. Was Bundy a sociopath? Yes. Did he know exactly what he was doing? Most certainly, he did. Was Ted Bundy insane? Not in a legal sense; but yes, I believe he was insane, for sane people recoil from such actions. Even your garden-variety murderer (those who kill in drug deals, or in the heat of anger,or killers-for-hire, or what have you) were aghast at what Bundy was doing, once the world figured out just who was killing these coeds.

What caused this aberrant behavior in Theodore Robert Bundy? Who can say. It certainly wasn't the pornography Bundy talked about the night before he was killed. But Bundy did live in a violent fantasy world where he longed to do terrible things to women, and somewhere, after hundreds or even thousands of hours of this type of contemplation, he simply stepped out of the realm of fantasy and into reality; and once this was accomplished, there was no going back.

I have just finished a book about Ted Bundy and I'm going through the final self-editing process even now. It has been a long journey, and it has occupied most of my time for the last three years. In that time I have spoken to many experts, and I've uncovered substantial new information concerning some of his murders from the former lead detectives who worked the cases and other sources as well. And strangely, it wasn't until I got to the halfway point of the book that I began to see how unique it was turning out to be. It actually surprised me, for I was uncovering information that one, I thought it either did not exist, or two, was lost forever. I can't give away this info. now, but through diligent research (is there really any other kind?) I was able to learn an important piece of information about the manner of death of one of Ted's victims that even the top FBI agent that worked with him never knew.

And no, I do not yet have a publisher. My time thus far has been about this book, and the hunt for a publisher begins shortly. I will keep the readers of this site informed.

Also, if Bundy did kill Burr, (and I think he might have) he did so intentionally. I address this too in the book.

carole gill

Kevin, you may not have a publisher now, but you certainly will!
The book sounds terrific. We always want to know more about cases like his. A lot more. And publishers know that and well, it's only a question of time--don't think too much time either.
I for one can't wait to get my hands on it, either!
Sometimes a book does change midstream--you find qualities in it that you hadn't even anticipated--and in your non-fiction genre too!
The best of luck to you, and Kevin, keep us posted!

Kevin M. Sullivan


Thanks Carole for the kind words, and I certainly will keep everybody posted!

Kevin M. Sullivan

A sad note to pass along: Beverly Burr died in early September. You can read a good article in the Seattle Times about her life written by a reporter who is also writing a book about the case.

Laurie Hallett

Sometimes I remember the day I rode with that Bundy while hitch hiking. At the time I didn't realize who he was and it wasn't until I saw his execution on the T.V. that I realized how lucky I was to be alive. The thing of it he was in Canada then around the Kamloops area

Kent

I think the foundation at SPU should be investigated even if it costs money. Ted could have buried the girl in it.
I think there was a neighborboy the parents were suspicious of. I thnk the police have to start doing their homework to find out who donit.

Jamie Devall

Kevin,

What is the name of the book you're writing on Ted Bundy? When will it come out?

thanks,
Jamie

Kevin M. Sullivan

My book about the Ted Bundy murders is being published by McFarland, and while I don't have a release date yet, it may be out by the fall of 2009 or perhaps a little later.

Kevin M. Sullivan

Jamie--

P.S. I haven't made a final decision on a title.

Liz


Actor Jack Nicholson also learned later in life that his sister was actually his mother. Now, he's not perfect, but he didn't feel compelled to grow up and kill people! Lots of people come from abusive families and don't kill.
I believe what was in Ted Bundy was there when he was born. His family dynamics may not have helped, but he was what he was.

tam

dear kevin m. sullivan, i am in possession of what may turn out to be a crucial fact about ted bundy's paternity. i seek the address of louise c. bundy in order to send her a photograph. can you assist me?

Kevin M. Sullivan

Tam--

I believe Louise Bundy is now in a nursing home, and I have no contact info on her. The Bundy family shuns interviews, and has done so for years. They simply don't want to talk about Ted and the murders, so I doubt that you'll get anywhere with them.

Kevin

r. small

was he their paperboy? if the girl follwed him around then they were friendly. a paper route 3 miles from home is not unheard of. it takes little time for a 14 year old to peddle his bike 3 miles.

Kevin M. Sullivan

I don't believe Bundy's route was in the Burr's neighborhood, but he did have an uncle who lived near there, and there may be additional connections as well. The main connection, however, came out of Bundy's own mouth, to Dr. Ronald Holmes in 1987. This was the focus of a newspaper article (The Tacoma News Tribune)that same year, and I interviewed Dr. Holmes about this and other dealings he had with Bundy for my book, "The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History" published last month by McFarland.

Did Ted kill Ann Marie Burr? I can't say with absolute certainty, but I lean in that direction, yes.

Emerson Pauley

I thought I heard on King 5 News, Evening Magazine that Mrs. Burr didn't think Ted Bundy had anything to do with it. She did really suspect a next door neighbor boy.

Kevin M. Sullivan

Mrs. Burr told me that, over the years, there were times when she felt Bundy might be responsible for her daughter's disappearance. Her husband also believed Bundy might be involved, and it's entirely possible that their belief in his guilt would rise and fall over the years based on the "latest" info they were able to receive from the authorities. My conversations with her (actually, I had two)were about a year or so before her death, and it was clear at that time she was leaning in the direction that Bundy didn't do it, but she added "I don't know." And of course, how could she? So it was clear to me she couldn't rule Bundy completely out of the picture. Perhaps he wasn't at the top of her list, but he was never removed from it, one might say.

...The idea behind our Off-Piste Combination Course is to work on both your own Performance Off-Piste as well as seeking out some great routes and off piste ventures in the selected resort that the course is run in

eliza

Bundy's grandfather (and father?), Theodore Cowell, was a real sicko. He beat his wife, was cruel to animals, and was a pornography addict I wouldn't be surprised if Ted were sexually molested by this pervert. If that happened it would explain a lot.

Ted seems to have had two strikes against him--a bad early environment dominated by a violent, abuse man--plus an incestuous parentage. If Bundy's grandfather were also his father, Bundy would have got a "double dose" of whatever affliction his grandfather had.

nicole suydam

Mr. Sullivan,
Have you had a chance to look over the latest Ted Bundy book entitled Happy New Year Ted? If so, what is your opinion on it?

Kevin M. Sullivan

Hi Nicole--

Well, there were two books on Ted Bundy published in 2009. One, Tim Wilson's book, and the other one was mine. Also, both of us live in Louisville, KY,so I guess we were destined to meet; and we did, at least by phone, lol! Tim called me one day, and we had a really nice conversation. He's a very likable guy, and I guess we talked for over an hour. Anyway, we ended up trading books soon after that, and I was very happy to receive my copy of his and Roger's book in the mail.

Now, about the book: I haven't finished it yet, so I will reserve judgment as to theory they put forth until that time. However (and I told Tim this over the phone) I'm not sure I'll ever believe Bundy was involved in the Columbus, GA murders (I didn't, and I still don't) but I'm keeping an open-mind about it until the end of the book. Even so, I really like the book! It is well researched (as a writer, I know the time and energy these two guys have put into it)and I like Wilson's writing style. So even if I end up believing they are wrong as to who was responsible for the Columbus murders, I still appreciate the book, am glad they wrote it, and that I own a copy. It's also one of those books I'd never discard from my personal library. But again, I can really enjoy their book, and still disagree with the theory.

BTW: My book, The Bundy Murders: A Comprehensive History, has recently been submitted to the Edgar Awards. Who wants to keep their proverbial fingers crossed with me?

nicole suydam

Thank you for your response Mr. Sullivan. I recently purchased the Happy New Year-Ted book and am a little over half way through with it. I also am greatly enjoying the writing style of the book, but am having a hard time grasping on to the theory. Although modus operandi can and does change in criminal behavior,I am in disbelief that Ted would have changed victim type to that degree. He chose the type of victims he was known for killing for one reason, that is the type of woman he found attractive. He was what could be labeled as 'successful' in obtaining college girl victims-the type he was attracted to-so why would he have changed to elderly victims who would have been much easier to overpower and therefore have not fed into his need for possession of a victim, or power/control over them? As you stated though, I am keeping an open mind until the end.
I am currently a college student (at 33!) obtaining a Criminal Justice degree. I have always held an interest in criminal behavior and the psychology behind it, which led to my interest in Ted Bundy. I have an extensive research collection and I look forward to the addition of your book to my collection. It is on my wish list on E-Bay, with a little luck (and my husband's credit card) Santa will bring it to me!
P.S-These proverbial fingers are crossed for your book-Best of luck to you!

Kevin M. Sullivan

Nicole--

I too believe that Bundy had a preference when it came to victims (women his own age, and young cheerleader-type girls) so I do not believe he would have crossed over to murder elderly women. It just doesn't compute, does it? Still, I find the book to be a very good yarn, and I'm learning about the Columbus murders at the same time. I really am happy that I have a copy of the book; still, I don't expect them to "win" me over that Ted's responsible for these murders.

And good for you being in college!

Also (as you might be interested) I have been answering questions at the site EXECUTEDTODAY since Jan. 24th of this year. It all started when an interview I gave them was published on the 20th anniversary of Bundy's death. Since that time there have been over 1300 Q&A's, and it's still going strong.

Once you read my book, let me know what you think, will you? If you know the Bundy story well, and are familiar with the previous works, you'll easily be able to recognize the new information I have on the murders, as well as many new insights throughout.

Anyway, good luck with your criminal justice career, and thanks for keeping your fingers crossed for my book, as I think I'm gonna need it, LOL!

dottie

another mans dna was found on the girl in2002 he was convicted of her murder Ted did not do it

Kevin M. Sullivan

Dottie--

I'm sorry, Dottie, but the case remains open. Ann Marie Burr has never been found, so how could they find DNA on a missing person in 2002? Perhaps Ted didn't do it, but that's something we may never know with any degree of certainty.

KMS

Emerson Pauley

I think they should examine the foundation of UPS where Ted Bundy could have thrown the body. The public and family deserve this.

Dee Downes

Today, January 28, 2010, 13 minutes ago | Dee Downes
I was in attending the University of Michigan during the time of the Michigan murders. Alice Kalom was the longtime roomate of one of my sorority sisters. I was stalked in the late spring, early summer of 1969 by a man I believe was Ted Bundy. The wavy, curly hair is what I remember most. He tried to blend in, but was dressed very differently than the male students at U of M at that time. It was the era of the hippies yet he was dressed as a preppie who needed a shave. He was slight of build. He carried no books, but stood against the wall with a newspaper under his arm. He wore a white dress shirt with rolled up sleeves. He had on light grey or biege slacks and a type of dress shoes that no one wore at that time. He began talking to me in a study room at the Union and asked me to step outside the room so as not to disturb the room. Once in the main hallway near the front door he asked me to go with him for coffee. I declined and put him off. I was in the habit of studying there between classes so the next day he was there again with the same clothes on. Again I declined when he asked me to go for coffee. The next day I changed my habit and went to the Ugly to study between classes and sure enough there he was when I came out of the library. The next day he was outside my class when I came out, and the following day he was at the foot of the hill I walked up to go home. Each day he asked me the same thing to go for coffee, and each day he had on the same clothes, kinda like someone who was living out of their car. He definitely was not a student and didn't look like what we used to call locals (people who lived in Ann Arbor, didn't go to UofM, but liked to hang out on campus.

I saw pictures of John Norman Collins when he was arrested for the Michigan Murders that fall and I said well that's not the guy who stalked me and never really thought about it again until years later when I saw the TV movie about Ted Bundy. It brought back those memories of my stalking because the actor in the movie looked and acted like my stalker.

The movie was before the explosion of the internet so I was not able to find a picture of the real Ted Bundy, but now searching the internet the pictures I see of Bundy make me swear that was the guy and I recently say a documentary on TV about Bundy and it gave me chills. I found an article that said Bundy traveled for a year and made it from the west coast to somewhere in New England in 1969 and it was there he looked up his mothers records and found out that his sister was his mother. Post a comment if you have any info that could place Bundy in Michigan in 1969.

ghfff

i think ted bundy deservved what he got

Kent

I think there is a lot of confusion about how far Bundy lived from the Burr's residence. Some say he lived too far, some accounts say he was a neighbor.
We don't know the truth because different writers say different things. I think his execution should have been delayed if he would have seemed to be cooperating about other unsolved crimes. I believe he would not talk about his first victim. Now from what King 5 Evening Magazine said some time ago, the Burr's actually suspected a neighbor more than Bundy. In any case,
there is speculation the Anne Marie Burr could be burried in the foundation of University of Puget Sound. In that case, this should be investigated, even if it costs some money.

Kent

What has happened to the DNA test?

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